The search is on!

2849 Views 25 Replies 11 Participants Last post by Dusty_Bin, Dec 28, 2012

Dusty_Bin

Discussion Starter · Feb 20, 2012

Hi all,

Been lurking on here for a few months and decided to join today. We've been researching cockapoo's for a few months now and have decided on an American cockapoo buff colour. Now the hard part is finding a breeder! We live near Southampton and so far I've only managed to find a american cockapoo breeder in Essex and another one a fair distance away. We're not in a rush and understand we could be in for a long wait, but would rather wait for the right dog.

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Sezra

· #2 · Feb 20, 2012

Hello and welcome to the forum! Great to hear that you have been doing your research! the Amercian Cockapoos have a lovely look about them and there are a few on here

. There are not as many breeders so it might be a wait for you but like you say it will be worth it in the end!

If you haven't already had a look then check out the Cockapoo Owners Club website for advice on health and care of Cockapoos, we also regularly add interesting articles from our members.

I look forward to following your search for your perfect puppy!

Reactions: 1

Jukee Doodles

· #3 · Feb 20, 2012

Hi and Welcome,

With searching for any of the Cockapoo mixes it is worth putting in the leg-work.

We openly promote people looking to visit at least two if not three different breeders and that means going to them and checking out their set-up and meeting their mums (or potential mums) - get hands-on with their dogs is a must. I'd also advise paying close attention to the relationship between the breeder and their dog(s) - as this can tell you a lot about how well they are loved and looked after. Even bigger licensed breeders should be able to show the bond they have with their dogs - and with an ever increasing awareness into welfare being shown where dogs live and play is good to see first hand.
As another advisory item - I'd never take your cheque-book - that way you have to walk away and take time away from the breeder to think things over - even if you say to them that your'd like to go ahead - no breeder should put you under pressure to decide there and then.

Check websites (if they have one) - not all websites are open and honest so do take some things with a pinch of salt - and "Google" the breeders too (that way you get to read about things they may not have editorial control over).

I am now suggesting people looking into "Cockapoo" do actually look to attend one of the many meets and walks held by members of this site / The Cockapoo Club of GB and also by The Cockapoo Owners Club - and both clubs have superb information on the do's and don'ts with searching for Your ideal pup x (Ooh - must also suggest JoJo's My Dogs Life blog - another great source of info x).
Meeting older dogs in the fur also gives you a chance to chat to owners - and that's a very good way to gain recommendations.

I must also add that The CCGB is looking to activate it's Registry soon (once the initial breeders who have signed-up have been inspected) and this will enable each puppy to come with full 5 generation paperwork.

Happy hunting and I'm sure you'll keep us all informed of your progress x

Stephen xx

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Jon Buoy

· #4 · Feb 20, 2012

Hi

Just like you we spent ages researching our new puppy, and looked at lots of breeders' websites and also other puppy for sale websites, but became totally bamboozled.

It's easy to become distracted by photos of cute puppies, but when you start looking closer, it's surprising how many breeders websites don't show photos and name the mums and dads.

One other very important thing we looked for was in regards to health testing of the parents and in particular prcd-PRA eye tests. PRA affected dogs can go blind and so to ensure that your new puppy is not one of them, it is important to ensure that at least one of the parents has been DNA tested clear.

Prcd-PRA is genetic and so the DNA test is essential. I've seen many adverts and websites that use phrases such as "Vet tested" or "BVA tested", but these only confirm that there are no symptoms present at the time of the inspection and cannot confirm whether a dog is a carrier. If one of the parents is a carrier there's a 50/50 chance that their offspring may be affected, if bred with another carrier.

These tests DNA are carried out in the UK by Laboklin and in the USA by OptiGen, so there are two names also to look out for. It's not cheap to get a sample of a dog's blood tested, but the good breeders will get at least one parent tested.

There's much more information regarding prcd-PRA and other health issues on the Cockapoo Club of GB website at
www.cockapooclubgb.co.uk/health-testing.html

Good luck with your search. I know from experience that it can take some time, but it was far more important for us to wait for the right dog as it will spend many, many years with us. Only a few more weeks to wait now

Jon

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Reactions: 2

wellerfeller

· #5 · Feb 20, 2012 (Edited)

Good luck in your search ! If possible when looking at breeder websites, look for the official kennel club name of the parent dogs, good breeders will either have the names on display or happily give you the official names of their dogs as with this name you can search the kennel club health testing results database for the health tests these dogs have had.
This will enable you to independently verify the health testing status of breeders parent dogs.
Best of luck.

Ps, this only really applies to F1 cross litters as the parents should be kc registered, it is harder to do this if you go for F2 as the parents themselves are crosses. A good breeder will still have knowledge of their dogs lineage though.

Reactions: 4

Janev1000

· #6 · Feb 20, 2012

Hi Jon

Interested to see that you mentioned Laboklin. My puppy's poodle father had his PRA test recently carried out there and I was interested to know if they are regarded the same as Optigen? I always get the impression that Optigen is the best place but would be reassured to know that Laboklin is just as good.

Jukee Doodles

· #7 · Feb 20, 2012 (Edited)

wellerfeller said:
Good luck in your search ! If possible when looking at breeder websites, look for the official kennel club name of the parent dogs, good breeders will either have the names on display or happily give you the official names of their dogs as with this name you can search the kennel club health testing results database for the health tests these dogs have had.
This will enable you to independently verify the health testing status of breeders parent dogs.
Best of luck.

Ps, this only really applies to F1 cross litters as the parents should be kc registered, it is harder to do this if you go for F2 as the parents themselves are crosses. A good breeder will still have knowledge of their dogs lineage though.

A good point Karen - and we totally suggest you visit breeders who are happy and open enough to show all their dogs on their website (or when you visit) along with their names etc (something we are seeing more and more breeders doing - it's a positive step x).
If you go along for an initial fact finding tour - the breeder should have all the paperwork there to see if you ask - including any Health test reports.

I'm looking into "lineage" at present in some depth - as the Show World / KC Pedigree dogs has always thought in-breeding, line-breeding and Selective breeding to be acceptable - but we (especially at the CCGB) do not condone in-breeding at all ! (I personally don't care now many health tests certificates or results a bitch and a chosen stud dog may have - if they are brother and sister / father and daughter etc etc then that's a major No No for the CCGB. The worst point is that without paperwork people may not be aware of the potential relationship between the dogs looking to be mated !!!
It is with this in mind that the CCGB have initiated a Register and all approved breeder-members will be able to supply formal CCGB Linage Papers to all their customers (5 generation - along with a data-base with the facility to check / assess common-ancestry).
In theory - the current gene-pool would not support F3 / F4 etc etc linage without in-breeding / line-breeding - so look into the histories of these crosses even closer x

Ethical dog breeding should not need to be carried put behind closed doors !

Hope this helps ?

Stephen x

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jos

· #8 · Feb 20, 2012

I have an F1 cockapoo and the breeder I got him from gave me both of his parents pedigree ( 5 generations) along with their PRA and hip scores - in breeding is just wrong!

wellerfeller

· #9 · Feb 20, 2012

Inbreeding is indeed very wrong but unfortunatley it is present in EVERY breed of dog there is. Humans will stop at very little to gain (in their eyes) perfection and is why so many pedigree breeds are suffering from accentuated characteristics which now cause no end of health problems.
Thankfully now the KC has recognised this and measures are being taken to try and improve the health of future puppies. This is a big reason that cross breeds have now become so popular bur health tests are still so important as potentially crossing two breeds could just result in pups that have inherited the genetic diseases not just from one breed but both.

Jukee Doodles

· #10 · Feb 20, 2012

Janev1000 said:
Hi Jon

Interested to see that you mentioned Laboklin. My puppy's poodle father had his PRA test recently carried out there and I was interested to know if they are regarded the same as Optigen? I always get the impression that Optigen is the best place but would be reassured to know that Laboklin is just as good.

We have used both labs for DNA testing our breeding dogs - and both Optigen and Laboklin are equally professional.

Stephen x

Jon Buoy

· #11 · Feb 20, 2012

wellerfeller said:
Inbreeding is indeed very wrong but unfortunatley it is present in EVERY breed of dog there is. Humans will stop at very little to gain (in their eyes) perfection and is why so many pedigree breeds are suffering from accentuated characteristics which now cause no end of health problems.
Thankfully now the KC has recognised this and measures are being taken to try and improve the health of future puppies. This is a big reason that cross breeds have now become so popular bur health tests are still so important as potentially crossing two breeds could just result in pups that have inherited the genetic diseases not just from one breed but both.

I agree - very wrong - I was aware that in-breeding can cause problems in the pedigree show-world, and I'm sure that there's a great deal that the public never get to hear about.

As F1b, F2, F3 etc cockapoos become more common, we need to be concious of a puppy's family history, especially as Cockapoos are still relatively rare in comparison to most recognised breeds.

Reactions: 1

JoJo

· #12 · Feb 20, 2012

In breeding will not happen with a good breeder of further generations.

Sezra

· #13 · Feb 20, 2012

All very relevant and interesting and I would like to carry on the discussion but I dont think Dusty Bins thread is the right place

Fab name by the way, I used to love that show when I was younger!

Jukee Doodles

· #14 · Feb 20, 2012

JoJo said:
In breeding will not happen with a good breeder of further generations.

JoJo ....."for further generations" is the best we can hope - as the likelihood of "in-bred" or "line-bred" Cockapoos to already be in the current gene-pool is almost a given !

As before - if a breeder is technically from a high level - Show / Pedigree background - in-breeding (inc line-breeding and Selective breeding) is likely to be common practice that they would not even flinch at (if you look this all up on the internet you'll have your eyes opened very wide !). Again - the current gene-pool is unlikely to support F3 and beyond at present - so the chance of an F4 having close common ancestry on both sides is huge !!!

If you check your KC Pedigree papers for your "Pure bred" Pedigree parents (F1) you are likely to find common ancestry all over the place - technically more from a Show Cocker lineage and a true Show Poodle linage - as Selective breeding took traits to create lines and those traits were normally blood-line driven - hence "Breed Standards" !!
Working Cockers less so (Game-Keepers not wanting in-bred and they knew outcrossing is best) - however this is not a given - as whereas the Show World prized a Show Winner (to be either a Stud of breeding bitch) - then the Working world would prize a Field Trials Champ and so on - so you will find 4th and 5th generations similarities (it goes without saying that a dog that does well in Show or in the Field would be a desirable and valuable asset in breeding terms).

Up until recently it has been carried out behind closed doors - though more awareness along with the genetic issues it also throws out has put the KC in the spot light for some time.

People are genuinely surprised that our Ziggy and Uncle Fester are actually Poodles - but their direct blood-lines did not follow the Show World. "Pets" were bred to be pets - and followed a much more "natural" evolution - they did not need the right blood-line to follow. Some say it was the health and wellbeing of a few dogs from several breeds that never saw the lime-light of the Show ring that led to their cross-breeding adding so much to the hybrid-vigour. If you seriously look at it - the Dog-Snobs are the purist Pedigree dog brigade - and they turn their noses up at Cockapoos - so anyone firmly ensconced in their World would not have dared considered cross-breeding. This in turn leads to the Show World background breeders of Cockapoos being from the outer edges of the Show Fraternity. You only have to read some of the other forums to read the distain some have for any cross-bred mutt !

Julia and I are seriously looking into the genetics - and so far the best way forward is a 6.25 % co-efficiency (common blood-line) in a 10 generation lineage. We will publish it all on the CCGB when finished - but you have in total 4,062 separate ancestors (individual dogs) in 10 generations (6.25% would equal 254 common ancestors within a mated pairs' history).

So we would need to look at drawing a line at say not allowing common ancestors to show BEFORE Great Great Grandparents - and then only a maximum of 3 times.

As for what is happening now ! - How many people follow paperwork / history to see if their F1 could be related to the stud F1 they want to mate with ???
Both potential dogs could have every possible Heath test - BUT they could be closely related !

The CCGB's Code of Practice and Breeding Code of Ethics is set-up to take in-breeding out of Cockapoo and protect the health and wellbeing longterm with Registration Certificates - that include mandatory micro-chipping of all puppies.

Stephen xx

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Sezra

· #15 · Feb 20, 2012

Jukee Doodles said:
JoJo ....."for further generations" is the best we can hope - as the likelihood of "in-bred" or "line-bred" Cockapoos to already be in the current gene-pool is almost a given !

As before - if a breeder is technically from a high level - Show / Pedigree background - in-breeding (inc line-breeding and Selective breeding) is likely to be common practice that they would not even flinch at (if you look this all up on the internet you'll have your eyes opened very wide !). Again - the current gene-pool is unlikely to support F3 and beyond at present - so the chance of an F4 having close common ancestry on both sides is huge !!!

If you check your KC Pedigree papers for your "Pure bred" Pedigree parents (F1) you are likely to find common ancestry all over the place - technically more from a Show Cocker lineage and a true Show Poodle linage - as Selective breeding took traits to create lines and those traits were normally blood-line driven - hence "Breed Standards" !!
Working Cockers less so (Game-Keepers not wanting in-bred and they knew outcrossing is best) - however this is not a given - as whereas the Show World prized a Show Winner (to be either a Stud of breeding bitch) - then the Working world would prize a Field Trials Champ and so on - so you will find 4th and 5th generations similarities (it goes without saying that a dog that does well in Show or in the Field would be a desirable and valuable asset in breeding terms).

Up until recently it has been carried out behind closed doors - though more awareness along with the genetic issues it also throws out has put the KC in the spot light for some time.

People are genuinely surprised that our Ziggy and Uncle Fester are actually Poodles - but their direct blood-lines did not follow the Show World. "Pets" were bred to be pets - and followed a much more "natural" evolution - they did not need the right blood-line to follow. Some say it was the health and wellbeing of a few dogs from several breeds that never saw the lime-light of the Show ring that led to their cross-breeding adding so much to the hybrid-vigour. If you seriously look at it - the Dog-Snobs are the purist Pedigree dog brigade - and they turn their noses up at Cockapoos - so anyone firmly ensconced in their World would not have dared considered cross-breeding. This in turn leads to the Show World background breeders of Cockapoos being from the outer edges of the Show Fraternity. You only have to read some of the other forums to read the distain some have for any cross-bred mutt !

Julia and I are seriously looking into the genetics - and so far the best way forward is a 6.25 % co-efficiency (common blood-line) in a 10 generation lineage. We will publish it all on the CCGB when finished - but you have in total 4,062 separate ancestors (individual dogs) in 10 generations (6.25% would equal 254 common ancestors within a mated pairs' history).

So we would need to look at drawing a line at say not allowing common ancestors to show BEFORE Great Great Grandparents - and then only a maximum of 3 times.

As for what is happening now ! - How many people follow paperwork / history to see if their F1 could be related to the stud F1 they want to mate with ???
Both potential dogs could have every possible Heath test - BUT they could be closely related !

The CCGB's Code of Practice and Breeding Code of Ethics is set-up to take in-breeding out of Cockapoo and protect the health and wellbeing longterm with Registration Certificates - that include mandatory micro-chipping of all puppies.

Stephen xx

And will this include limiting the number of litters that studs should produce because I think this is what is narrowing the gene pool down for the future generations. Larger breeders using the same stud over and over again and other 'popular' poodle studs in certain areas of the country will make it harder to breed without travelling. This is a problem already occuring in the Devon area where a fabulous Poodle stud is always used to produce F1s but when looking to produce an F2 owners are having to travel to find a Cockapoo Stud that will not be related to their own dog.

I feel that rightly so there is a lot of focus on the dams however it is the narrow range of decent tested Poodle studs that will be responsible for the limited gene pool.

Apologies Dusty Bin. I appreciate that this wasn't what your thread was about.

Reactions: 2

Laura(L)Izzie

· #16 · Feb 20, 2012

Welcome Dusty Bin

The thread went a bit off topic, but I hope you find your perfect pup & please keep us updated with your journey

Reactions: 2

JoJo

· #17 · Feb 20, 2012

Yes sorry Dustybin it went off topic, enjoy your puppy search and we will all help you as much as we can on here...

3-2-1 Ted Rogers .. loved it .. I would have wanted the Dustybin consolation prize

showing my age again ..

Reactions: 2

Sezra

· #18 · Feb 20, 2012

I could never quite understand when I was little that if they lost they didn't get a Dusty Bin they got a normal dustbin

I always used to think that having a Dusty Bin would be ok as a prize

Classic shows! Love 'em. That and the generation game.

Reactions: 1

Dusty_Bin

Discussion Starter · #19 · Feb 21, 2012

Thanks for the warm welcome....

Thanks for all the replies (even if many went off at a tangent!), I will post updates as the search progresses which may help others in the future.

Regards
Dusty Bin

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Jukee Doodles

· #20 · Feb 21, 2012

Dusty_Bin said:
Thanks for all the replies (even if many went off at a tangent!), I will post updates as the search progresses which may help others in the future.

Regards
Dusty Bin

Thanks Dusty !

Again Sorry for it going slightly off centre - however this happens a lot on posts and to be honest sometimes it throws up some great topics and chat.

PS: I was a big fan too xxx - Though doing the Ted Roger's 3-2-1 thing often led me to swearing inadvertently at anyone watching my hands !

Stephen x

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