[2ndhandgal]

Just to clarify, joint disorders can be caused by under or over exercising too - but in many cases it is down to poor breeding stock and in Mollys case the hip joint and knee joints are the problems rather than anything which could have been caused this far in her life.

She is fine for the moment and I will do everything in my power to keep her fine but this does mean she is likely to have more pain as she gets older which to my mind make it completely unacceptable for breeders to not doing every possible test - as others have pointed out the total cost of tests for one dog or bitch is likely to be less than the price 1 puppy is sold for.

Molly herself is much happier this morning and decided her new route out of the back door is to jump onto the garden bench and then over the back of it onto the grass behind.

Sorry edited as I had posted at the same time as Shirley - yes experience of the vet is also key as another much younger vet had told me there were no structural problems with Molly and any pain must be down to a muscle pull. Thankfully I chose to pursue this and have now seen two seperate far more experienced vets who have both found exactly the same problem and have both mentioned that surgery might be necessary in her case.

 

[marzy]

bless her
give her a hug from me xx
marzy xx

 

[M&M's mummy]

2ndhandgal I have heard that Turmeric is good for arthritis/joint pain and is an anti-inflammatory - so if you like the "natural " approach along with magnetic collars that have previously been suggested may help her.......


Here is a link : http://www.k911.biz/Petsafety/Turmeric.htm

 

[DONNA]

Not sure how representitive this is however I have found out the following

To test for FN £85
Optigen £120
Eye exam approx £40
Hip scores approx £150

That is all I have found out for now but I think you would be looking to pay around the £500-£600 to test a dog properly. A small price to pay to ensure that you are producing healthy puppies. Even if you breed carriers as breeders regularly do, puppies are sold without contracts and could go on to be bred with other carriers producing affected puppies. As someone pointed out on another thread there are SO many puppies on preloved, most of them without any health tests on the parent dogs.

I want our club to become popular, not because there is anything in it for us because we are non profitable but because we want to try and improve the breeding situation and make the public more aware when they go looking for a Cockapoo puppy that there is more to it than finding a cute fluffy dog!

I think all of these club discussions are really positive This is a fantastic opportunity to make a difference but we need to set the standards high if we want to make any difference.

I think for that price then the tests should be done really ,are these test conclusive? also would say only the father (poodle) need to be tested?

Im sure as with human beings there are lots of gentic conditions out there and you would not be able to test for everything prehaps they should look at just the major problems these dogs could inherit,im speaking as a mother who has passed on a genetic disease to her son (cf) i know you cannot compare but if the tests are so cheap i think they should be done but only if they are completly conclusive.

 

[2ndhandgal]

also would say only the father (poodle) need to be tested?

Sorry - totally disagree that only the father should be tested - the only possible reason I can see for only testing the stud is cheapness as one stud will be used many more times (which incidentally means huge genetic issues for those wishing to turn the cockapoo into a proper breed further down the generations)

No test is conclusive but if breeders are charging top prices for pups as they are they should be doing every possible test to try and ensure pups are as healthy as they can possibly be - to do otherwise is gambling with the health of the pups people are buying to save money on doing health tests.

 

[Jukee Doodles]

I'm really sorry to hear about Molly. You could also give her Glucosamine and high strength 25+ Manuka Honey (although that is really expensive)

Health testing is certainly going to be a major way to sort out good breeding practices from bad. Now that we have learned much more about the potential health problems JD are set on a programme to test all of our breeding dogs over the coming months. Three more are booked on Thurs to take the bloods for PRA and we are going to try the German lab Labokiln that has a lab also on Manchester this time. The vet visit will already be it's cost then £89.95 for PRA DNA but with the same blood we can also have FN DNA tested at an extra cost of £75.45 each dog. For not such a big extra cost it seems sensible to do it at the same time. We are also starting to hip score the dogs. First ones booked in next week and yes I believe it's about £150 each.
I believe that if breeders want to continue to find homes for their puppies then it is the buyers that will dictate that the health tests need to be done. To start with as long as some breeders have acctually done the tests then buyers have a solid point to put to any breeder they are considering buying a puppy from: if they've done the tests why haven't you. We are, and others should be prepared to put their money where their mouth is.
JD can accept that some of you love our set up and others don't like the fact that we are a bigger licensed breeder, that's fine you are entitled to your opinion. Taking that as a given and putting it to one side, if over the coming months you wish to use us as an example to encourage other breeders to do the tests then go for it. None of us can change the world but if we can help in some small way then that seems worthwhile to me.

Julia

 

[2ndhandgal]

Thanks Julia - and good to know you are increasing your health tests.

It looks like there are also standard tests for patella luxation which can probably be carried out at the same time as hip scoring:

http://www.english-toy-terrier.co.uk/pl.htm

Apologies for the breed but it was the best link I found after a quick search.

 

[DONNA]

Sorry - totally disagree that only the father should be tested - the only possible reason I can see for only testing the stud is cheapness as one stud will be used many more times (which incidentally means huge genetic issues for those wishing to turn the cockapoo into a proper breed further down the generations)

No test is conclusive but if breeders are charging top prices for pups as they are they should be doing every possible test to try and ensure pups are as healthy as they can possibly be - to do otherwise is gambling with the health of the pups people are buying to save money on doing health tests.

That was a question not a statement

 

[DONNA]

Well done Julia for doing the tests im sure others will also agree,i only knew about the PRA tests when looking for my poo and i discounted lots of breeders who didnt do it ,so this is another very positive move and like you say hopefully others will follow.dx

 

[Sezra]

Putting the size to one side, if a breeder decided to set an example with health testing and set the standards higher for other breeders to aspire to then that would be a huge step forward. It is owner/buyer driven which is why it is important that we are more knowledgeable about these conditions. We are the ones who will see our beloved pets suffer through lack of care when breeding.

 

[mum2bobs]

Julia, do you not think that this is a prime opportunity for the CCGB to really set the benchmark? I think that only eye tests are stipulated as being compulsory for member breeders, which is great, but as the club is in its infancy it is a prime time to really make a statement on the importance of proper testing.

It would be a great move for the club, but mainly for the future and health of the 'breed' if higher testing standards were set by its registration body wouldn't it?

Maybe it's something the committee could discuss?

 

[wellerfeller]

I'm really sorry to hear about Molly. You could also give her Glucosamine and high strength 25+ Manuka Honey (although that is really expensive)

Health testing is certainly going to be a major way to sort out good breeding practices from bad. Now that we have learned much more about the potential health problems JD are set on a programme to test all of our breeding dogs over the coming months. Three more are booked on Thurs to take the bloods for PRA and we are going to try the German lab Labokiln that has a lab also on Manchester this time. The vet visit will already be it's cost then £89.95 for PRA DNA but with the same blood we can also have FN DNA tested at an extra cost of £75.45 each dog. For not such a big extra cost it seems sensible to do it at the same time. We are also starting to hip score the dogs. First ones booked in next week and yes I believe it's about £150 each.
I believe that if breeders want to continue to find homes for their puppies then it is the buyers that will dictate that the health tests need to be done. To start with as long as some breeders have acctually done the tests then buyers have a solid point to put to any breeder they are considering buying a puppy from: if they've done the tests why haven't you. We are, and others should be prepared to put their money where their mouth is.
JD can accept that some of you love our set up and others don't like the fact that we are a bigger licensed breeder, that's fine you are entitled to your opinion. Taking that as a given and putting it to one side, if over the coming months you wish to use us as an example to encourage other breeders to do the tests then go for it. None of us can change the world but if we can help in some small way then that seems worthwhile to me.

Julia

Julia, credit where it is due!! That is great news. like you say if some breeders start to test for these conditions then it will make the ones that don't think again. I know which one I would consider buying a pup from.

 

[Jukee Doodles]

Julia, do you not think that this is a prime opportunity for the CCGB to really set the benchmark? I think that only eye tests are stipulated as being compulsory for member breeders, which is great, but as the club is in its infancy it is a prime time to really make a statement on the importance of proper testing.

It would be a great move for the club, but mainly for the future and health of the 'breed' if higher testing standards were set by its registration body wouldn't it?

Maybe it's something the committee could discuss?

Well as I see it in an idealistic world the CCGB could lay down the law and every breeder would have to happily comply, simple! If only life were so easy.

The CCGB have stuck their neck out already with the PRA DNA test being mandatory and feel comfortable to do so because the test is pretty conclusive that if one parent is DNA clear then the worst any offspring will be is a carrier and carriers do not get the eye disease.

If one breeder raises their game to encompass everything idyllic wanted / needed from the masses (actually a select few who are pressing for it !) then with the acknowledged costs involved - the imposed restrictions demanded on litter numbers etc etc will mean that the puppy price would need to be amended well beyond the reach of many buyers - how many other breeders would then follow ? Where are all the other wannabe Cockapoo puppy owners going to go - to a breeder who does the generally acceptable norm !



An very feasable knock-on to imposing all tests would be:


Not many of your Home Breeders will bother with this initial outlay in the first place and will not sign up?

Not many of your Hobby Breeders bother will ALL the tests - if they only have one litter, would they recoup their costs as these health tests are only a small part of the cost of raising a litter? So will not sign-up.

Your business breeders would then get even larger (because demand would still be there) as they would justify the testing cost - but then would this be classed as “farming” ?

So potentially absolute demands could push the Cockapoo breeding world backwards and send a large proportion of it underground !
I will point out that generally what is accepted as the norm now, still does have the best interest and welfare of the dog in mind and are you aware that 99.9% of customers do not even think / want / intend to breed from their beloved pet anyway !!! So in essence producing a healthy pet is should be the object of all education in this area. Remembering that this thread was about Molly's diagnosed of slipping patella which is exactly why this discussion should be taking place because we should try to understand how best to prevent such a case, across the board.

This is truly a Catch 22 scenario ! - we’d be dammed if we do and dammed if we don’t.
This is the real World and not a fairytale one!!!!

What we have seen so far is a select few who want this Holy Grail of IDEAL - it is a brilliant idea and we support it - but it does not support itself. As if it could - don’t you think that the KC would have embraced it long ago - and as such pedigree dogs would be supreme and the Cockapoo may never have found it's place?


We do actually have a dog here 'the Cockapoo' that surpasses lots that have gone in recent history - the general health issues for the Cockapoo are minimal in the big picture and the hybrid vigor of the first crossing is a bonus too - but some MAY think it overkill to wrap the breed into such a tight bundle of red-tape that either no one breeds or it goes “underground” ???
So I guess what I'm saying is that somewhere along the line we have to use education and awareness to get breeders to follow good example by their own choice, because they can see that this direction will both benefit their dogs and themselves. Unfortunately none of us have a magic wand.

Julia

 

[Jedicrazy]

Molly has recently been diagnosed with luxating patella (

Sorry to hear about Molly I'm glad to hear she is not in too much pain at the moment. Thank you for sharing this with us all as we all need educating on the possible health issues that could be avoided by breeding health tests. As the owner of a puppy who was critically ill at 6months and not knowing whether is was inherited genetically or not (there is not enough research to know but I suspect it is) health testing is a priority for me now.

so i am hoping to start testing for this in 2012.

Mandy that is excellent news, well done you, I hope more breedrs (hobby or licensed) will do the same.

This is surely an area where the newly formed CCGB should be helping to set the standards isn't it, especially if it is starting to be a problem for the 'breed'?

Couldn't agree more. The CCGB has a real chance to make a difference here.

So now I know and and now I would urge people to ask for these health tests. I have been educated and by reaching and educating others puppy searching, eventually the tide will turn and breeders will HAVE to have to tests in place as that is what their customer base expects. It really is a case of consumer power!

. You are totally right Karen. Now we are all more aware of the issues (I for one only knew about PRA when I was looking for Obi) it's down to the puppy buyers to insist on these tests. We pay a premium for our preferred type of dog and we expect them to be healthy. When I buy dog no.2 I will certainly be paying much more attention to the other health tests. Mt concern is that there won't be enough breeders out there doing more than just DNA tests for PRA.

Now that we have learned much more about the potential health problems JD are set on a programme to test all of our breeding dogs over the coming months.

Julia that's excellent news. i strongly urge you guys and the rest of the CCGB team to look at raising the minimum health testing requirements. Now is the time to do it at the start of the club before breeders apply.

All, I for one can vouch that having your gorgeous and seemingly healthy dog be faced with a painful, critical or life threatening condition is the most horrendous experience and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Anything that we as a collective on this forum or any of the clubs can do to push the importance of health testing has to be good. This post is not about breeder politics or competition but the health and welfare of our precious dogs and future puppies which should be important to every single person on this forum. Please get behind this and support it.

 

[DONNA]

Well said Julia ,totally agree dx

 

[mandym]

I agree,i think the CCGB team should seriously consider adding to the health test required,it can only do good by encouraging the best breeders to join,id rather that than a whole load of irresponsible ones xxx

 

[Sezra]

Well as I see it in an idealistic world the CCGB could lay down the law and every breeder would have to happily comply, simple! If only life were so easy.

The CCGB have stuck their neck out already with the PRA DNA test being mandatory and feel comfortable to do so because the test is pretty conclusive that if one parent is DNA clear then the worst any offspring will be is a carrier and carriers do not get the eye disease.

I have to be honest, I don't think insisting on PRA is sticking your neck out, I think this is the bare minimum standard EVERY breeder should be doing. To have the club's stamp of approval I think the standard should be set higher.

If one breeder raises their game to encompass everything idyllic wanted / needed from the masses (actually a select few who are pressing for it !) then with the acknowledged costs involved - the imposed restrictions demanded on litter numbers etc etc will mean that the puppy price would need to be amended well beyond the reach of many buyers - how many other breeders would then follow ? Where are all the other wannabe Cockapoo puppy owners going to go - to a breeder who does the generally acceptable norm !

I don't see why the puppy prices would be driven higher than the £800 to £900 they already are? I do appreciate that there are more costs involved than the ones I mentioned earlier however I really don't think that £500 worth of tests on a bitch that could potentially have four litters is alot to invest. If say you carried out all the tests on your girls but kept the price the same then buyers would question why others weren't doing the same.


An very feasable knock-on to imposing all tests would be:


Not many of your Home Breeders will bother with this initial outlay in the first place and will not sign up?

Not many of your Hobby Breeders bother will ALL the tests - if they only have one litter, would they recoup their costs as these health tests are only a small part of the cost of raising a litter? So will not sign-up.

Yes, maybe...but those who really care about the breed will do it with the tests and maybe the others will not bother breeding at all because it might just make them think they would struggle to sell their puppies without health tests?

Your business breeders would then get even larger (because demand would still be there) as they would justify the testing cost - but then would this be classed as “farming” ?

No, because you have limits on how many you would breed (morally/legally) and there is no rule that says you have to meet the demand!

So potentially absolute demands could push the Cockapoo breeding world backwards and send a large proportion of it underground !
I will point out that generally what is accepted as the norm now, still does have the best interest and welfare of the dog in mind and are you aware that 99.9% of customers do not even think / want / intend to breed from their beloved pet anyway !!! So in essence producing a healthy pet is should be the object of all education in this area. Remembering that this thread was about Molly's diagnosed of slipping patella which is exactly why this discussion should be taking place because we should try to understand how best to prevent such a case, across the board.

This is truly a Catch 22 scenario ! - we’d be dammed if we do and dammed if we don’t.

Better to be dammed for doing your best than not bothering!

This is the real World and not a fairytale one!!!!

What we have seen so far is a select few who want this Holy Grail of IDEAL - it is a brilliant idea and we support it - but it does not support itself. As if it could - don’t you think that the KC would have embraced it long ago - and as such pedigree dogs would be supreme and the Cockapoo may never have found it's place?

Pedigrees have good and bad breeders however there are good ones that do ALL of the relevent tests...I have yet to see one Cockapoo breeder who considers all hereditary conditions.

We do actually have a dog here 'the Cockapoo' that surpasses lots that have gone in recent history - the general health issues for the Cockapoo are minimal in the big picture and the hybrid vigor of the first crossing is a bonus too - but some MAY think it overkill to wrap the breed into such a tight bundle of red-tape that either no one breeds or it goes “underground” ???
So I guess what I'm saying is that somewhere along the line we have to use education and awareness to get breeders to follow good example by their own choice, because they can see that this direction will both benefit their dogs and themselves. Unfortunately none of us have a magic wand.

Actually Julia I do have a magic wand but the batterries have run out ! (It was Lizzies! ) I also have a Wonder Woman outfit but sadly I have grown out of that!

Julia

I am not singling you out as breeders but you are on here, answering questions and heavily involved in the club so in short you have quite a good opportunity to lead the way.

If you like I will get some more batterries for my wand and you are welcome to borrow it (it is pink and plays a nice tune )!

 

[Jukee Doodles]

I have to be honest, I don't think insisting on PRA is sticking your neck out, I think this is the bare minimum standard EVERY breeder should be doing. To have the club's stamp of approval I think the standard should be set higher.

The CCGB can only educate people who are in class. If breeders don't sign-up because the bar is set at a height that frightens them, then we will have no influence, irrelevant how far JD goes to to be an example.
Can I put a suggestion out to all of you who care? How about you guys canvassing breeders that you may or may not know personally, to find out what would the highest health testing bar be, where they would still be prepared to sign-up? Call it market research. You guys have a real chance here to make a real difference.

I don't see why the puppy prices would be driven higher than the £800 to £900 they already are? I do appreciate that there are more costs involved than the ones I mentioned earlier however I really don't think that £500 worth of tests on a bitch that could potentially have four litters is alot to invest. If say you carried out all the tests on your girls but kept the price the same then buyers would question why others weren't doing the same.


That's exactly what we intend to do at JD. We have already started and plan do them all over the next few months. Then we will cap our prices at £900 again we can be used to quiz other breeders who go to £1200 and beyond, as some already do.

Yes, maybe...but those who really care about the breed will do it with the tests and maybe the others will not bother breeding at all because it might just make them think they would struggle to sell their puppies without health tests?

To start with they will still breed, just sell the puppies cheap and there will always be a market for anything cheap....sadly!

No, because you have limits on how many you would breed (morally/legally) and there is no rule that says you have to meet the demand!

The CCGB can only regulate the number of litters that they will register and issue papers for, for any one breeder. All puppies need to be microchipped and the number is printed on the certificate. It then comes down to the breeders integrity not to produce extra litters of puppies outside that and buyers awareness and education not to buy these extra pups. The only power CCGB has is to exclude a breeder member that exhibits such practice.
We at JD cannot meet the demand for our pups and have forward orders now to August '12. However we are not going to increase in size because we have found a level that we are comfortable with that we can manage and we can sleep at night knowing that we can do the best for the dogs that we have. Others don't worry and may not have a problem sleeping at night regardless of the practices they perform.

Better to be dammed for doing your best than not bothering!

We do get dammed, but we are doing our best and we certainly are bothering.

Pedigrees have good and bad breeders however there are good ones that do ALL of the relevent tests...I have yet to see one Cockapoo breeder who considers all hereditary conditions.

That's true, there's good and bad in all aspect of life. It will take us some months to test all of our breeding dogs as it will be a costly exercise, so hopefully in 2012 you will be able to say "Well there is one Cockapoo breeder who does all of the health tests." or way better "Yes I do know a few Cockapoo breeders that do all of the health tests." Here's hoping.

Actually Julia I do have a magic wand but the batterries have run out ! (It was Lizzies! ) I also have a Wonder Woman outfit but sadly I have grown out of that!

I initially wondered what type of magic wand you were referring to........phew it's was Lizzies I can do pink.

Julia

 

[Sezra]

:laugh::laugh: Definitely the Disney Princess variety!

I think if you asked breeders what they would be willing to do as a minimum it would be set low by most otherwise they would already be upping their testing. I think what may drive change is the puppy buying public, they just need some good advice and a few breeders to start setting the standard and hopefully other breeders will follow.

We are already starting to change things by talking about these issues on forums and starting clubs...it is all progress.

 

[JoJo]

As a puppy buyer I would like good health testing done by a breeder...

As an owner I would like to have the healthiest pet possible...

And as a possible breeder I would only breed the best dogs with the required health testing carried out...

Do it well or don’t do it at all ... for the sake of the puppies ... I guess that’s how I see it

Health and care is so important for any new litter ... and all good breeders will have this covered prior to breeding